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TL5 Panther Tracked Tank (Read 30 times)
Skaran
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TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
03. Apr 2009 at 08:13
 
Not really sure whether the WW2 Panther would be a TL5 or 6 design based on the Tech Level projection chart in TNE. Here is my take on this vehicle as a TL5 version. A TL6 version would have simple stabilisation on the main gun but would otherwise be quite similar.
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collins355
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #1 - 04. Apr 2009 at 22:33
 
Here is my Panther, designed using stock FF&S1 rules, but at TL6 as with the CT/Striker version.  I tried to stay faithful to the wikipedia stats (armour for instance) but had to play around a bit elsewhere to get it to work.  I don't think any operational Panther had stabilisation.
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Starwolf
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #2 - 05. Apr 2009 at 07:10
 
I have always considered WWII being mainly TL 5 with early appearing TL 6 stuff around 1944.
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collins355
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #3 - 05. Apr 2009 at 08:01
 
Each to their own!  IMHO trying to assign Terran historical dates to TLs was a fundamental mistake by GDW and they should have stuck with descriptions of the types of technology that defined a particular tech level transition, but YMMV and I accept that is an equally valid perspective.

I took my lead from the fact that the CT/Striker Panther was constructed at TL6, as was the MegaTrav D'wor (aka Panther-clone) in 101 Vehicles.  

Panther from mid-1943, so very close to your 1944 cutoff...I've always considered late war vehicles as TL6 rather than TL5.  No published Traveller design system copes with them very well otherwise. Sticking WWII in TL5 means they can't have used semi-auto rifles (no Garand!), auto rifles (no BAR), SMGs (no MP40 or Thompson), radar, etc.
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Skaran
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #4 - 05. Apr 2009 at 08:16
 
Actually in FF&S1 Radar is available at TL5 and the design sequences do allow for all types of gun actions so SMGs etc can be designed. So it appears its the tech descriptions in TNE that may be off. I found the problem was actually the TL4 to 5 one, especially for tracked vehicles. According to FF&S1 tracks do not appear until TL5 - TL4 circa 1900, TL5 circe 1930. Which would make things like the WW1 Renault FT17 from 1916 or the British Mk1 from the same period a little difficult to build.

Incidently TL9 is shown as circa 2010, where is my fusion powered starship? Cool
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #5 - 05. Apr 2009 at 08:26
 
On a more related note looking at both Collins and my designs it is amazing how weak by modern standard, the armour on WW2 tanks is. Of course it is likely that in WW2 there was no conception on how large tanks guns were going to get. I read somewhere for instance of a plan in the Bundeswher to upgrade their old Leopard 1 tanks from 105 to 120mm smoothbores to match the Leopard 2s while at the same time upgunning some of these to 150mm. Apparently the turret can take a larger gun. Both plans I believe were eventually shelved.

Hmm, perhaps I'll try an early Leopard 1 next, developed during the 60s and with 2000 delivered by 1970 this would transit from TL6 to TL7 according to version I guess.
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collins355
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #6 - 05. Apr 2009 at 16:59
 
It will be interesting to compare, if I try one with standard FF&S and you do it using the separate hull and turret mod.

Problem is, Leopard when introduced was not significantly better armoured than Panther.  Leopard was a fast, well-armed tank which sacrificed protection.  It would not have stood up well against the opposition guns of the day (100mm on T55).  From the 1970s much better protection was added to the Leopard turret, and tactics of fighting hull-down would have given it a better survival chance.

I think British tanks fit a lot better with FF&S design biases, because they tend to be heavy, slow and unreliable!  Maybe I'll try a Centurion...
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Skaran
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #7 - 05. Apr 2009 at 19:33
 
The Mk5 Centurian appeared in late 1952 so definately TL6. With the Leopard 1 I would assume TL6 for the 1A1 and 1A2 versions and possibley a TL6/7 hybrid for the 1A3. The Australian version which was based on the 1A3 had laser rangefinding so TL7 in that area at least. The 1A4 and later versions perhaps straight TL7. What do you think?

The later Leopard 2 starting at TL7 and progressing through TL8 with later versions such as the 1A6 fitted with a 120mm/L55.

Of course we should now be doing tanks with at least some TL9 systems fitted based on TNE giving TL9 circa 2010.

In any case it will be interesting to compare stats with those presented in Twilight 2000.
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #8 - 06. Apr 2009 at 07:57
 
These two versions of the same design are quite good. There is a problem with TLs linked to certain dates/years, however it is much easier to vision what a 1940 TL is versus 1950.

One thing I would have liked to see is more steps in internal combustion engines. The best available is at TL5, which is way too low for me.

And I think I'll with future designs construct the turret differently from the chassis as this gives better room for control when designing the same vehicle with a different turret due to different weaponry in the turret. Thus it is easier to keep the chassis with the same design parameters. It will also be easier to assign different armor values and sloping to the turret seperate from the chassis. Overall a win-win situation.

And I do agree that crew stations inside a vehicle is basically too large. A while back I tried to designa WWII jeep, but was foiled by the seating rules. Even cramped seats seems way too large. I am unsure that an open Jeep like the willys really needs seats by the standard rules. The vehicle is bassically a box with wheels and a motor where the riders sits on top.
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collins355
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Re: TL5 Panther Tracked Tank
Reply #9 - 07. Apr 2009 at 13:03
 
I didn't find creating a reasonable facsimile of the Willys Jeep impossible - so long as one allows the use of restricted seats for the passengers.  The vehicle would be a bit larger than historically accurate if you insisted on cramped seats.
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